Better Than Food: A Conversation with Clifford Sargent
Honest Book Reviews for New and Seasoned Readers
I first came across Cliff Sargent’s Better Than Food book reviews on YouTube some months ago, after deciding to finally assail Proust’s Remembrance of Things Past. Guess I got tired of pretending I had read it, like most literature aficionados do. You know, you’re at a party or speaking among other writers and somebody brings up what they gleaned from Proust, and you say “ahhh, yes,” or just nod your head in thoughtful agreement with the speaker (herself pretending to have read the work in its entirety). Enter the Proust rabbit hole, which included Ralph Fiennes’s empathetic Marcel Proust in the BBC docudrama How Proust Can Change Your Life. (A must-see, by the way.)
Then, I stumbled upon Cliff Sargent’s review of “Swanns Way,” or part one of Rememberance of Things Past — which he summarizes as “the best book to read trapped in the snow.” (Ha! That KILLS me.) Check it out:
Roots
Where do you hail from, where were you raised?
Born in Norman, Oklahoma, raised in the Pacific Northwest by my Mom and Stepdad (my Dad), on the edge of the Columbia River, near Portland, Oregon.
Mom dropped out of art school to drive trucks in the Army, stationed in Germany. Lifetime adventurer.
Dad was a Vietnam Vet, an electrician at a steel mill, and a solid acoustic guitarist.
Were your parents readers or writers? Did they collect books, too?
Both my parents read, but not intensely; neither wrote, to my knowledge, nor were they collectors. It was my Mom who had the literary and film taste. Nobody had a more foundational influence on mine. I remember Hunter S. Thompson on the shelf, and Hemingway. She wasn’t a collector, but someone with distinct taste, who laid enormous foundations for mine. I remember looking at the ghostly white shape of the gecko on the blue rock on the cover of Fishboy by Mark Richard.
She always read to my younger brother and me. All kinds of stuff. Excerpts from Grimm’s fairy tales and myths (I remember the story of Polyphemus and Odysseus), Poe, ghost stories; unusual and eclectic selections. She introduced me to Jim Jarmusch and the films of David Lynch, the music of James Brown, Tom Waits.
My Dad was a fan of bluegrass, had collections of Shakespeare and Rudyard Kipling, and was a big sci-fi paperback reader. He and my mother bonded over a shared affinity for the guitarist Ry Cooder.
My biological father passed away young. A great father, though I did not know him very well. To my knowledge, he was not a big reader.
Did you attend college, if so where? What did you major in?
When I was 17 or 18 I moved with friends to Portland to study film production at the Art Institute of Portland, a school which, after an enormous lawsuit, no longer exists! The classic story of a delusional teenager pursuing a worthless arts degree.
I freelanced for a while after graduating. I use the camera and editing skills I learned, but that could’ve been learned in a month (or less) on YouTube. Orson Welles said something similar. I discovered that he was correct about many things regarding film and the industry.
What are your views on higher education?
Higher education seems dubious. I distrust the practical utility of a great deal of higher education outside of STEM, and it’s looking like STEM is increasingly questionable given the current landscape.
Everyone’s asking the same questions: What pays? What’s safe? And what will last?
I never considered pursuing an academic career in literature when I was younger.
Can college inspire life-long reading or inhibit it?
I truly have no idea. I suspect it depends on the degree and the person. My love of reading was there long before.
From Film to Books
How did film studies contribute to your on-camera presence, and your reading choices?
The school gave me a working knowledge of film production and an extremely active social life. The sociability, I suspect, is what allowed me to get in front of the camera, not acting classes. I am a terrible actor.
I wasn’t running with a literary crowd, but it was growing internally. My focus was on film. Gradually it began to shift.
Originally my knowledge of literature was a strange, disordered patchwork cobbled together from wherever my interests took me and whatever was recommended to me along the way.
My school was next to Powell’s, so I spent a good deal of time in there, and began running into interesting folks who recommended great books. Life-changing books. Sadly, I don’t remember all their names, but I remember the books they recommended.
What was the genesis of Better Than Food?
A friend and I took a trip to Spain. I came back, crashed with my dad while looking for a room to rent, and when I was about to move out, he was diagnosed with cancer. So my brother and I stayed to take care of him for about a year and a half until he passed away.
He lived outside the city, so during that period I was looking for a creative outlet, as I was trying to make a feature film, and it was going nowhere. So, inspired by the earlier days of Anthony Fantano and The Needle Drop, I thought, what the hell, and started talking about books on YouTube. Poorly, but there you go.
“Better than food” is something I have said to my wife when I haven’t joined her and my daughter for dinner, I admit it. Is this a mistake? I also like your “Die Reading.” When did you arrive at these?
Yes, I think that’s a fine use of Better Than Food, haha.
“Better Than Food” was a line written by the British author Jeff Noon to describe the Collected Fictions of Jorge Luis Borges. He wrote an interesting book called Nymphomation, which I enjoyed as a teenager. Had that kind of Massive Attack, British trip-hop, cyberpunk vibe which I was into at the time.
In the beginning, the show was extremely casual. Experimenting. “I read this thing. You might dig it.”
“Die Reading” came to me while my wife and I were driving over the bridge on Tampa Bay one day. I just wanted a sign-off to express that kind of Icarus drive for unending knowledge and experience seeking. Pry the book from my cold dead fucking hands, y’know? That kinda thing. Die Reading.
Cliff’s Way
I like your channel because it champions the fact that literature belongs to all of us — all classes and educational backgrounds. These works were written and edited to be made accessible to the modern reader. It may take a little work from the reader.
Absolutely. Reading is something almost anyone can do but relatively few, speaking to the population, will. One could say the upper classes may have more time to read (they certainly do, and that’s no small thing), but I suspect many choose not to. Reading is a meritocracy. It is available to everyone. Yes, as you said, it requires a little work. It’s not the easiest thing in the world, but it becomes more so. It really does come down to whether or not one can sit alone in a room with a book.
The big issue, often outside of our control these days, is time. There is so much expectation to keep up with the cost of living that there is no time, and reading, especially reading and thinking about a book, demands time.
You speak in the vernacular, including invectives that we hear daily, everywhere. Is this something you’ve adopted to reach others? (My guess: it isn’t. You always seem to me to be on the level.)
Yes, the way I speak on camera is the same way I’d speak to you in a bar if we were hanging out talking about books. Bourdain was a big influence in that respect. Show up. Crack some cynical jokes. Talk about something cool. A great author and reader in his own right.
I like how you mention your wife in your reviews often. What is her role in the channel? Will she read a book in tandem, or is she catching up like the rest of us?
My wife has always been enormously supportive of the show. She’s a talented photographer, and has done tons of photography and video for the channel. Almost any photo on Instagram for the channel is hers. She shot all those video intros.
Yes, sometimes we’ll read a book in tandem and discuss it (The Shards was a fun one), and she frequently has terrific insights. We’ll discuss and debate and go back and forth and share ideas. I couldn’t ask for a better reading partner.
I could never expect her to keep up with me because it’s virtually all I do, but I’m always happy when we get to read something simultaneously.
Do you guys like going to literary conventions?
Nah, not our thing, but then we’ve never been to one. We mostly go to the gym. Otherwise, the occasional movie, wine bar, goth club, or techno show. My wife and I met one night dancing at a small techno show in Portland.
The Audience, and What He Expects
Tell us about your viewership. How far has it grown? What are your expectations, if any? Where do most come from?
Overall the growth has been modest. I’ve been doing this for over a decade. The pandemic brought the largest increase.
I don’t have any expectations. I have no idea where this machine is going. Contrary to Einstein’s theory of insanity, I do the same thing over and over again, and the results are different. Sometimes wildly.
But it fluctuates. I do not make a lot of money. There are things I could do that would make more. But I’d hate it. I’d rather get another career going, which is likely to happen anyway.
Reflecting on it is moving, because despite trolls (comes with the territory), for the most part people have been supportive and shockingly kind. Even the negative attention cheers me up.
I’ve been awestruck by some of the comments and messages I’ve received, made many friends and acquaintances, some of whom I’ve met in person. I’m recognized in public now and then. Everyone is always so kind. It has been great fun. A strange journey.
I’ve heard from people who watch the show from all over the earth. I recently requested that anybody watching from an oil rig leave a comment on the last Cormac McCarthy review. A couple of guys working on rigs left comments! A prominent war journalist recently expressed his enthusiasm for the show. That floored me.
I can’t pinpoint my exact “target audience” because they’re all so varied; that’s what’s so enjoyable about it. I never know who’s going to show up. It’s addictive. Every single individual I speak with is a real individual. They’re all fascinating people in their own right. And they’re all bonded by an infatuation with books. It’s a very, very strong drug.
I’m aware of the parasocial relationships forming, but I don’t mind it. I’m glad to be someone people can listen to about something they might be interested in, and then you can turn me off when I just won’t shut up. It works well!
I don’t have to leave my house. I don’t even have to put on pants. (I put on pants. Or do I? They’ll never know.)
I’m just trying to tell people about cool books. Others did that for me, and it changed the entire trajectory of my life. It’s a remarkably powerful thing, for how simple it is. The only downside to the job is having to tell people I can’t read their books. I don’t like to disappoint people, but time is extremely limited. And the stack is colossal. I will not read all the books in my library by the time I die.
Reading, Today
What are your views on BookTube? Does it offer a sound starting point to writers new and old? Or is there too much to listen to, does it distract, or turn readers off?
BookTube proliferated after I was off doing my own thing. I’m not really wise to it and never paid much attention. I’ve had great conversations with Chris Via from Leaf by Leaf and Randy Ray, The Literate Texan. Good guys. Very knowledgeable readers.
I’ve met a variety of interesting personalities through the show, but I don’t speak with a lot of BookTubers. I always hated the term. Thought it was repulsive when I first heard it. I mean, it sounds diseased, doesn’t it?
I think both of those things could be true. It could be a good starting point. There’s also a gargantuan amount of content. If the author’s book is actually good, I trust it will be discovered. But Popularity ≠ Good.
I’m inundated with books I do not want to read, almost daily. I feel terrible having to tell so many people “No,” but guarding one’s reading time is literally the most important thing in this gig.
What do you call a “classic”? (The age-old question, answered by many but rarely agreed upon.) What are your views on inclusion in, or exclusion from, the canon?
I never gave it much thought. Figured I’d leave it to the authorities like Harold Bloom, far more well read than myself, who have a greater understanding of the history of literature. If pressed, I’d call a classic a timeless work that remains intellectually and/or emotionally powerful, or innovative.
I don’t take issue with a literary hierarchy. Some authors and works are more accomplished than others. It’s nice to have a guide, a starting point. That doesn’t mean one must agree.
Some works of genius get suppressed, for one reason or another. Fine. That gives them a power the widely accepted works do not possess. Sade, for example. Paglia argued that he ought to be taught in universities. He should be. But he won’t be. The more excluded a great work is, the more mystique it gains. There are far more important things than inclusion in “the canon.”
One of my favorite books, a completely outrageous erotic and philosophical novella called Story of the Eye by Georges Bataille, was written under a pseudonym. Having your name on something that incendiary back in 1928 was a major liability (what’s changed?). Some things are only called a classic when it is safe to do so.
It is said that we live in a post-literate society, here and elsewhere in the West. Is this true? If so, to what do you attribute it? Can your reviews help bring readers back to reading? If so, why?
I really do not know. I operate in a very specific niche where I haven’t seen evidence of this at all. But the headlines look dismal, don’t they?
If true, what caused it? Who can say. Probably the obvious culprits. Phones. The cost of living. Convenience. Shit education. Mark Zuckerberg.
I’m not here to save the world from illiteracy. I speak to those who are already hooked. You can lead the horse to water. I can’t teach people how to read. I can only strongly suggest what to read.
OK, last question: What, how and when will AI eclipse original writing and individual interpretation of major works? Are we in trouble, or can AI help bring us to the best ever written? Any parting thoughts?
It damn well better, for all the cash they’re throwing at it, no? I’d like it to occur precisely after they begin issuing (obscenely large) UBI checks.
Yes, we’re all waking up and, somewhere right before the first sip of coffee, recalling that the machine is arriving. Then we stare into space for 15 seconds and question our life choices. Gazing into the unknown. H.P. Lovecraft said that there’s no greater fear than the fear of the unknown (and he would know). A collective death of the value of intelligence! Imagine! (Good novel in there, no?)
Of course, the hubbub could all just be bluster to avoid the issue of less-than-mind-blowing progress, but who knows.
So far, in regard to writing the best ever: the Machine does not fear death, nor does it want to fuck. It can’t lose itself, be moved to tears, or become authentically obsessed. I have faith.
But if they reach their goals (and I suspect on some level they will, or we’ll all be living in vans), then yes, all bets are off.
But I suspect the other side of AI will be something like what Michel Houellebecq said about the lockdowns: “We will not wake up after the lockdown in a new world; it will be the same, just a bit worse.”
Is a mediocre technocratic future (where we’re at) better than an “AI utopia”? Good question. But I suspect the coming war against Skynet will do wonders for getting people to talk to their neighbors again, no?
Die Reading.
So, is Proust better than food?
‘You betcha,’ he’d say and adds:
“Always remember that life is far too short to read bullshit.”
-Cliff Sargent, "Swann's Way,"Better Than Food.
January 27, 2017. Video, 25:02:00.
[This interview can also be read at my Substack Page. ]








